Talk:Beta Quadrant
A few questions: (1) Where does the description of the Beta Quadrant come from? What is the source? (2) The USS Olympia was sent to explore the Beta Quadrant for 7 years. The nearest starbase to System J25 was two years away at maximum warp (as I recall). Both these indicate a limited Federation presence. How is it, then that the article claims that the Beta Quadrant is "dominated" by the UFP, the Romulans, and the Klingons? (3) The speculation on Ledosian and Nygean space should be confined to a background article. (4) I would like to understand the claim that "Powers in the Beta Quadrant are often informally referred to as being part of the Alpha Quadrant." What is this based on? (5) What is the source of the claim that "Both the Mutara Nebula and the Genesis Planet are located in the Beta Quadrant"? I would appreciate anyone who can address these as I am not yet convinced these claims are supportable. Thanks! Aholland 04:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC) :So far as I can recall, almost all information on the Beta Quadrant in Star Trek has been derived from throwaway references to people, places, and things being "the only x'' in the quadrant," e.g. establishing the Enterprise as the only Federation ship in the quadrant as a plot device for Star Trek II. Such statements can be used to infer that the Federation spans at least two quadrants, leading to further inference that at least some of its larger neighbors are in one or the other. The problem is that such references are dubious to begin with--it's absurd to think that Starfleet had exactly one ship in either the Alpha or Beta Quadrant during Star Trek II, unless one accepts that "quadrant" was an ill-defined term at that point in the franchise's development. :Deep Space Nine presents an overwhelming number of references to the Federation, Cardassians, Romulans, and Klingons all being "Alpha Quadrant powers," and I don't see why the use of this term cannot be taken at face value. Although it's not a stretch to assume this is shorthand for "Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers," that assumption is based on the speculation that some of those governments are mostly located outside the Alpha Quadrant, which in turn is based on the speculation that the Federation sits right in the middle of Alpha and Beta. If there are sources for this speculation, I'd love to see them in this article, but otherwise I'm inclined to accept DS9's premise that everything's happening over in the Alpha Quadrant.--Jimsmith 10:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC) ::The 4 Quadrants seems to be a 24th century designation, because there are other "quadrants" before the introduction of this terms (in TOS and in the beginning of TNG). Maybe Romulans and Klingons have territories in the Alpha Quadrant (which would explain their raid on Cardassia). Otherwise, the wormhole is maybe located in proximity of the beta Quadrant and the term "Alpha Quadrant powers" could be used for simplicity as the wormhole ends in the Alpha Quadrant (Dominion may also have territories in the Delta Quadrant). - Philoust123 12:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC) :::This is circular logic: We know the Romulans and Klingons can be (mostly) in the Beta Quadrant because "Alpha Quadrant" is shorthand for "Alpha and Beta Quadrant"; and we know "Alpha Quadrant" must be just shorthand because the Romulans and Klingons are (mostly) in the Beta Quadrant. :::Which brings us back to the original point. What episode establishes that any of the Big Four have any territory in the Beta Quadrant in the first place? --Jimsmith 20:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC) There is no such episode; I've checked. :) (But I welcome anyone to point out where I made an error on that!) The article as written is misleading and erroneous and should be overhauled completely to only state what is known about the mysterious Beta Quadrant. (Which ain't much.) Aholland 21:16, 24 March 2006 (UTC) :Just glancing at the article I'd say the points that need to be addressed are as follows... :* Earth, the Murata Nebula, and the Genesis Planet are all at least partially in the Beta Quadrant. I'm assuming this comes from the Enterprise being "the only ship in the quadrant" while stationed at Earth in Star Trek II. This would not be sufficient, given the dual meaning of quadrant as described in the Stellar cartography article. :* The Federation, Klingon Empire, and Romulan Empire dominate the Beta Quadrant. It's yet to be established that those powers are even in the Beta Quadrant, let alone that they dominate there. :* Powers in Alpha/Beta are informally referred to as being in Alpha. If there are no (known) Beta Quadrant powers, this premise becomes meaningless. :* System J25 is in the Beta Quadrant. I'm not sure why this assumption is being made, except to put J25 as close to Borg space as possible. However, it's entirely possible that the Borg ship encountered at J25 was on a long-range mission, sending it far from its own territory. For all we know J25 is in a part of the Alpha Quadrant that's two years beyond Federation space. :I'd be willing to make the necessary edits myself, but I'm fairly new here and wouldn't want to risk violating any local netiquette (assuming I haven't already). And I'm still open to the possibility that there are sources for all of these things, even though no one has come up with any. --Jimsmith 04:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC) ::We should think that Khitomer was ''not in the Beta Quadrant, since in Star Trek VI, Sulu says "We're in Beta Quadrant" when explaining how far away he is. -- Captain M.K.B. 05:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :::OK, now we're getting somewhere. ;) The USS Excelsior article suggests that the planets Sulu was investigating were outside the Federation, which would not prove or disprove that the Federation has any authority in the Beta Quadrant. That Excelsior was buffeted by the Praxis shockwave suggests Praxis and Qo'noS are in or at least near the Beta Quadrant. --Jimsmith 08:13, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :Found it. The source for all this confusion is that otherwise rather authoritative book the Star Trek Encyclopedia. Under the entry for "Beta Quadrant" it says it is the region "in which the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire are located." It goes on to say that "parts" of the UFP spill over into it. Star Trek VI (in which all Sulu says in his log entry is "After three years I've concluded my first assignment as master of this vessel cataloguing gaseous planetary anomalies in Beta Quadrant". According again to the Encyclopedia, the script was drafted in accordance with this location of places in mind. Also, the bisecting of the Sol System such that it is on the border between Alpha and Beta comes from the Encyclopedia. :But that's it - the location of Beta and what is in it wasn't otherwise embraced by the writers and Alpha was noted as the home of all the major Trek locations. In my opinion, this is simply Okuda proposing stuff that was never really adopted by the writers or producers. The article should then only note the two (three?) data points we know from the shows what the Beta Quadrant is - the flights of the USS Olympia and the USS Excelsior (and the Yattho?) - and put the rest, including the Encyclopedia guesses, into a Background section. Aholland 13:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC) :::Okay, here some two screenshots from Voyager episodes that might be helpful for this discussion. Both screenshots were taken from scenes where the maps displayed were moving or zoomed in/out, meaning it was hard to take a clear screenshot that displays everything that is of relevance for this article. I encourage people to review the scenes themselves so that they can see what I mean. :::The first screenshot comes from VOY: "Pathfinder". It shows a large LCARS diplay seen in the Pathfinder Project laboratory. The Milky Way Galaxy is depicted here and the location of the four quadrants is indicated, I think this is even the only time that we do not only see the 4 quadrants (aka the Galaxy divided my two lines that meet at a right angle at the center of the galaxy) but also that they identified by name. :::The second screenshot is from VOY: "Year of Hell, Part I". I shows another map of the Milky Way Galaxy, this time in the newly installed Astrometrics lab aboard the USS Voyager. It shows the flight plan of the Voyager back home to Earth, starting in the upper right corner (the short orange part of the line is the part of the way home the Voyager has already covered in the previous 3 years) and terminating in the lower left part of the galaxy depiction. Now, you can see that the galaxy is devided into four parts, the four quadrants. This is a little hard to see on this screenshot, as the lines, that represent the borders between the four quadrants are rather thin at this part of the presentation (as the main focus is the route home), just look at the scene and you will see that the lines are clearer in the seconds preceding the addition of the Voyager's flightplan home. :::As can be seen (and again, please do not only judge by this screencap but watch the whole scene) the journey of the USS Voyager starts in the Delta Quadrant, actually pretty close to the border of the Gamma Quadrant. From there it goes "down" meaning towards Earth, not going straight through the galactic core but avoiding it (this is my speculation: because of the black hole at the center of the galaxy or because of the enormous number of suns around the core region). The Voyager will traverse the Delta Quadrant and then "enter" the Beta Quadrant (its location in relation to the Gamma Quadrant evidenced on the first screenshot). :::The line terminates at planet Earth, which, as can be seen, lies on the intersect deviding the Alpha Quadrant and Beta Quadrant. (on the screenshot, the pink line has not come to its final destination, Earth, but the camera zooms in making a screenshot from this scene very fuzzy and unclear, this, again, can be better observed by watching the actual scene.) I'll look out for further maps of the galaxy, seen on screen, that might be useful here, this is just my cup of tea for the moment. --Jörg 14:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)